I dont support enabling him. Then he orders his church to shun the entire family, including small children. Again, 1 Cor. That is odd. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? Totally agree with you about his church (and Ligonier, etc.) @ refugee: Each person arrives at their own solution, in their own time, for their own relationship. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. That is Gods department. No record and right back into ministry he goes! I know that kind of thing happens often these days. Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. I offered H.A. What does that mean? We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Yeah, he needs help. . Christiane wrote: Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). Relationships and social interactions matter to many people. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. where driving under the influence is concerned, makes things patently clear. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). But to say that is what is causing him to stumble? I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. There are phone books with that same information. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. I would be interested in writing a post about. Even my best friend knew I could not speak of it. Our sin is as sinful as is his. The problem with your narrative is weve seen it all before. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. In short, what began as a symptom or presenting problem of some deeper problem takes over and then becomes a worse issue, a consuming vicious solution to the original suffering. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. He has suffered tragedies, yes. There is more to the story with these people. You have my prayers. Shannon Sproul passed away in 2012, not 2014. Please work on that. It may be all they can do to get help. Odds are high theyll just make a bad situation worse. Thanks for giving us that information. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Drunk driver got Vehicular Manslaughter (if not outright Murder) added to his DUI. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. There is no reason for churches to be stuck in the Dark Ages on subjects such as substance abuse, sexual abuse, mental illness, domestic violence and a host of other prevalent problems that will come up in peoples lives. I think its valid to point out that both these men were defrocked by their churches, and that we should be concerned about what they subsequently say and do in Jesuss name. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. I hope he gets help I really do. . The church that I attend believes in using wine for communion but it also offers grape juice for those who choose not to drink it. So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? An honest pastor will say, Im sorry, but Im not qualified to give you advice about that, but that would be a rare pastor. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Not many would criticize the moderate consumption. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. So its simply not true that Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant. You live in Louisiana, amirite? My husbands father was an alcoholic. https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders. Barbara is not a medical doctor with training in alcoholism and substance abuse. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? However, I would get nervous during youth group meetings where real sinners: drug users, violent criminals, former gang members-were brought to share their testimonies. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Im not incorrect. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. In fact, I get very nauseated from using any sort of opioids. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Trying to save children from the hell of an actively alcoholic parent is a good thing. Have the proper 501(c)3 religious authorities been properly notified? When you brought up 1 Cor. My wifes oldest son is alcoholic. 1. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. Come on People!!!! I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. What a traumatic experience for a young teen. He has shown no signs of full repentance and a changed life, so thats why treatment is not as important to me right now it wont work. Haha. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. I speak from some experience on this. Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. I think its a huge problem that he is still in ministry. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." I was very clear that R.C. Alcohol can kill, it can ruin marriages and finances and it's a waste of Gods finances but that is all my personal opinion. Even if his church wanted to help him get clean and sober and go into treatment, he very likely has the people under him (the ones who stay) brainwashed enough that they believe that a) he can do no wrong, and b) if he is said to have done something wrong, it is actually persecution and not that he has done anything wrong, because (see point a). At least, from the description. H.A. ), Mae wrote: And the steam burns from the radiator explosion on the picture they look like first-degree burns. May his tribe increase until we take vigorous steps to drastically change our whole culture in this matter. They all knew that by inviting Jr into their pulpits in their churches and at their conferences it would buy them favor with the old man. After struggling with this for years, it was like a light bulb was turned on. A memorial service was held on Wednesday, December 20 in Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. 2. being too negative and saying nothing works (which I did not say in the first place). I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Nothing in life is full-proof. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. : (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). There is no excuse for it. Why are you addressing that to me? In time, this changes for the better. 1. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. That is exactly what RC Jr. and like-minded men are running, and many are running their cults under the protective coloration of a mainline denomination, such as the PCA or the SBC. @ Velour: Im just curious, how does a person sitting in a church service every Sunday help to treat someones alcoholism? Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. As the kid of an alcoholic & as a (former) wife who had her husband arrested (& convicted) for drunk driving I have to admit my patience with problem drinkers is very very thin because of the levels of devastation they inflict on others. misunderstood her. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. Even pre-internet, a person could lug out their printed Yellow Pages phone book and look up the names of psychologists and so on. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I posted that list to you multiple times. The idea of just kicking someone to the curb and not getting them help (and help for their family) is not the Christian thing to do, in my opinion. It would be good if she could be more specific on what this alleged therapy is though. Im pretty sure this is the first time Ive ever posted on this blog. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. Of course, if people believe that the real church somehow went dormant with the death of the last apostle and was not revived until the sixteenth century a lot of otherwise good ideas based on experience are just trashed-like the need for privacy regarding some things and how to handle both sinners and privacy within the church. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. This is a disease, not a moral failure. I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. It was far more than a couple drinks a day. @ Christiane: There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. I know its hard, I do cry for strength, I dont always like him for the damage done to our family. (Specifically that H.A. You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. Till I found TWW & SSB. @ okrapod: I needed that sort of help. So far no response. However, that is how I see that particular passage: social danger to others, or more than looks and testimony. For several decades the 12 step model/solution has been the dominant one in US treatment facilities. I dont think Okrapod specialized in treatment of alcoholics and substance abusers. Were not mind readers. If somebody thinks the argument is in error then evidence to that effect must be submitted, and you are just saying that because you have been hurt does not stand the test. Velour wrote: At least, from the description. Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? You advocated, like Barbara, that Sproul Jr. be kicked out of his church. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. Thanks for giving us that information. Sproul, Jr.,s daughter) posted a listing of Sprouls offenses and saved me some time: Drunk driving with children. Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? And I cant thank you enough for the lovely story that you wrote to us yesterday about how your church and clergy loved and cared for that woman church member who was an alcoholic and who wasnt clean and sober. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. I would be very surprised if he hadn't at least been required to go to a few meetings. In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. 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